The Founding Fathers: Christians, Atheists, Agnostics or Deists?
Posted February 8th, 2008 by The_Producer
output
Ok I've noticed ALOT of atheist bashing from the conservative side, people tend to criticize atheists as being liberals which is NOT true. Let's hear what our beloved founders had to say on the subject.
"Lighthouses are more helpful than churches."
--Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanack, 1758
"Ecclesiastical establishments tend to great ignorance and corruption, all of which facilitate the execution of mischievous projects."
--James Madison, letter to William Bradford, January 1774
"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise, every expanded prospect."
--James Madison, letter to William Bradford, April 1, 1774
". . . no man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burthened in his body or goods, nor shall otherwise suffer, on account of his religious opinions or belief; but that all men shall be free to profess, and by argument to maintain, their opinions in matters of religion, and that the same shall in no wise diminish, enlarge, or affect their civil capacities."
—Thomas Jefferson, Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom, 1779
"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear."
--Thomas Jefferson, letter, 1787
"As to Jesus of Nazareth, my opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the system of morals and his religion, as he left them to us, the best the world ever saw or is likely to see, but I apprehend it has received various corrupting changes, and I have, with most of the present dissenters in England, some doubts as to his divinity, though it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an opportunity of knowing the truth with less trouble. I see no harm, however, in its being believed, if that belief has the good consequences, as probably it has, of making his doctrines more respected and observed, especially as I do not perceive that the Supreme takes it amiss, by distinguishing the unbelievers in his government of the world with any peculiar marks of his displeasure."
--Benjamin Franklin, letter to Ezra Stiles, March 9, 1790
"All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit."
--Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason, 1794
"I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish Church, by the Roman Church, by the Greek Church, by the Turkish Church, by the Protestant Church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my own church."
--Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason, 1794
"Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we called it the word of a demon than the Word of God. It is a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind."
--Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason, 1794
"The question before the human race is, whether the God of nature shall govern the world by his own laws, or whether priests and kings shall rule it by fictitious miracles?"
--John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson, June 20, 1815
"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter."
--Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823
"History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance, of which their political as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purpose."
--Thomas Jefferson, letter to Alexander von Humboldt, 1813
"Man is fed with fables through life, and leaves it in the belief he knows something of what has been passing, when in truth he has known nothing but what has passed under his own eye." —Thomas Jefferson, letter to Thomas Cooper, 1823
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another HOW DOES THIS GET
another HOW DOES THIS GET RON PAUL ELECTED? ...thread!!!
"Most of the above" -- but outright atheists? No
There were orthodox Trinitiarian Christians, Unitarians, deists and agnostics among the founders, but outright atheism? No. Furthermore, they were all operating in a very thoroughly Christian social milieu that shaped their thinking and values, so regardless of their position, they were functionally "Christian" to a much greater degree than we find in society today.
______________________
God is the LOVE in the Ron Paul rEVOLution: "Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love."
these people through apotheosis over the centuries
I feel that it is good to hold our leaders in high esteem if they deserve to be remembered that way, however: we have deified these people through apotheosis over the centuries until they are like demigods. They put their pants on one leg at a time in the morning just like me. I believe that if these men were anti-Christian; I don’t have much use for them as a devout Christian.
I believe that the Lord Jesus Christ is the greatest Hero of all time. Just because someone was a popular leader over 200 years ago, if they were against Jesus than they are mostly my enemy as far as I am concerned.
They can do their little Masonic occult kabalistic practices and worship Mammon Ra; jump around with their regalia to get material gain, Sodom and Egypt style, but where are they now? They are in the ground.
That being said, I am not so sure that some of these leaders were not true Christians.
nothing good can come of
nothing good can come of mixing politics and religion...and what scares me is that people want to intertwine the two...your right as a human being and a citizen should not have anything to do with what religion you include yourself in..i am an atheist but i support everybody's right to believe in what they feel is true to them..though i dont agree with people doesnt mean that we all dont share common life goals and want the same comforts for ourselves and our loved ones...people need to keep in mind that this revolution is based on principles and rights that all men and women are to share, regardless of religious preference..and it scares me to think that if the good dr were an atheist some would vote for Huckabee for that simple fact..this isnt about god..its about freedom!!!!
deist...
http://www.theology.edu/j...
Thank you for that excellent
Thank you for that excellent link!
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Liberty for Dummies
Point 5 can be improved to the more accurate
5. Repent and be baptized and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Acts 2.38 (amplified)
Repent (change your views and purpose to accept the will of God in your inner selves instead of rejecting it) and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of and release from your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Read Franklin's autobiography and read about Adams.
Do you want to be believe them or Dr. Nettlehorst?
Sir Isaac Newton was a deeply believing Christian but was not
a Trinitarian. Some of the doctrinal differences among Christians are semantical more than substantial. Being a trinitarian is not one of criteria.
for being a Christian. I know Trinitarians and "oneness" Christians who are all Christian by Nettelhorst's criteria.
Jesus Said - Feed my Sheep. Know the truth and be free.
MAIN STREAM "CHRISTIANITY"
should be compared to
Truth about Jesus, the Christ,
just as free men are able to compare the
Main Stream Media to the Truth about what is going on in our world.
*
Ecclesiastical establishments (that is the Main Stream Church)
generally do become as corrupt as the Main Stream Media.
The Bible says that followers of Jesus are to be priests themselves unto God as Individuals. It is a deception of the Main Stream Church that there should be priests in a church and people falling into in bondage to the religious system.
it is a wonderful thing to find a good group of Christians
with which one can worship and seek the face of God.
However this can be a very difficult thing to find at times especially if one is overseas or in a new community, etc.
The MainStreamChurch (MSC) sometimes called the MainLineDenominations does have some true believers in it and some of them do very fine work, and for many, the MSC is the visible church.
The writer of the book of Acts and the gospel according to Luke was a physician. He was a respected scholarly man. The apostle Paul was a well known extremely well read and educated scholar and a highly successful businessman. Their writings are actually quite well preserved and with just a little bit of work you can read them in the original Greek if you mistrust the sometimes small sometimes interesting nuances of going from Koine Greek to English. The apostle Paul is writing at the 12th grade level and so many are simply unwilling to study what he actually said.
I encourage all of you to at least read a few of the books of the so-called New Testament and see for yourselves what it says. These books have stood the test of time.
You may find it interesting that the MAINSTREAM CHURCH tried to hide these books from the common people.
DOES THIS SOUND FAMILIAR? What were they afraid that the sheeple would find?
My personal belief is that the Father had a hand
My personal belief is that the Father had a hand in the formation of this country, so that His children could have a place to assemble in liberty. That is my birthright as an American and I don’t like NWO people trying to take it away. With that said, I think there was, and is, some creepy Masonic thing going on with the leaders, and Lucifer is the “god of this present world”. Not for long though! My Lord Jesus is coming back soon, like it or not.
Absolutely.
Franklin was actually a fairly deep believer. Read his autobiography. Note that he recommends Bunyan's Pilgrims Progress. Ben Franklin's mentor was a member of the sect called French Prophets who prophesied and spoke in tongues. (Read also about the Camisards and the Waldenses.)
The summary of his religious
The summary of his religious beliefs, written to Yale President Styles near the end of his life, could have been penned by any number of Unitarians in the late eighteenth century. He confessed a belief in God as Creator, and in the immortality of the soul, and that we serve God only by our service to other people. He said he always doubted the doctrine of the divinity of Jesus, though he regarded Jesus' moral teachings to be the best ever presented.
thanks for posting
i'm going to look them up. I didn't know they thought that way.
Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has.
-Margaret Mead
Scanner13.......
I too was an atheist for years. The change came to me when my first child was born. The miracle of life is life changing. I pretty much despise organized religion though to this day, as to me it is soooo fake. I don't need to prove my faith to anyone. Church to me seems to be more of a support group of peers. My wife and 3 boy attend church without me. I go occasionally, but don't feel like I fit in. There are higher life forms. There has to be, and I do pray (meditate-whatever you want to call it). The bottom line is that we all come here for a common reason, and that is to support Dr. Paul and his message. It's not our differences that bring us together, it is our common beliefs. Some days I don't post here, because there is so much negative on this site. We need to stay positive and focus on the things that bring us together, not the things that separate us. There is no guilt for your beliefs, and I will never condemn you, unless you are slamming the good Dr. Then you will feel the wrath. Kharma is a very strong force whether you believe in it or not.
I, too, was an atheist...
since I reached the age of reason. I saw religion for what it was... a fable. The most destructive fable in the history of humanity. I didn't change my mind when I had my first child in December 2005. He will never be indoctrinated in the myths and legends. He will lead the revolution of freedom on THIS earth when he's old enough, if it hasn't happened by then.
As an atheist who supports Ron Paul (and, I know many who do), I often wonder, if Ron Paul were an atheist, would there be any Christians supporting him?
I think that is an important question... do you value your liberty in the here-and-now? Or are you just waiting for the Rapture?
"Cheers for liberty, my man."
http://www.youtube.com/wa...
"The question isn't who is going to let me, it's who is going to stop me." - Ayn Rand
http://www.myspace.com/go...
I feel that if Dr. Paul were an Atheist that I would not support
I am waiting for the rapture, but I don't believe in a pre-tribulational rapture.
I feel that if Dr. Paul were an Atheist that I would not support him.
I have a right to freedom of religious belief, and my Holy Scriptures tell me:
"A fool hath said in his heart that there is no God."
I don't trust Huckabee, but he has it right, the Constitution of the U.S.A. does not posses as much authority as the Holy Bible. John Locke, constitutionalism, and all that philosophy is nothing compared to the Bible.
thanks for being honest
that's one Christian vote against an atheist Ron Paul.
Guess I won't sweep the South when I run. Course, neither did Ron Paul. ;-)
"Cheers for liberty, my man."
http://www.youtube.com/wa...
"The question isn't who is going to let me, it's who is going to stop me." - Ayn Rand
http://www.myspace.com/go...
You are welcome.
The scriptures say that, not from my own knowledge. My personal knowledge is also nothing compared to the Holy Bible. You may be a nice person; I don't know you, but I am just stating what the Bible says. I am not contesting the scriptures, that is just what it says. I am not trying to be a smart mouth either.
Deists...but tolerant of
Deists...but tolerant of all.
Who cares
what they were. The here and now is what is important.
This discussion of Religion is
obtuse and irrelevant. Ron Paul is not interested in anybody's religion, just their rights.
100,000 Precinct Leaders will win it
Get out there and inform
Instead of pontificating, which only gets you votes if
a)you are the candidate
b)people are listening
AND
c)you know what you're talking about
Spread the freedom message
Worship in private, as the good Doctor does
'Live for yourself, there's no one else more worth living for,
Begging hands and bleeding hearts
Will only cry out for more...'
I don't know where you find
I don't know where you find your quotes from the Founding Fathers, but what you posted is a far cry from what they believed. Below are some true quotes of our Founders, they are researched and accurate. And historians generally agree that the Founding Fathers were comprised of about 250 men.
John Adams:
- On drafting committee of Declaration
- Signer of the Declaration
- 2nd President
“The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principals of Christianity… I will avow that I believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.”
Benjamin Franklin:
- On drafting committee of Declaration
- Signer of Declaration
- Signer of the Constitution
“God governs in the affairs of man. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured in the Sacred Writings that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it. I firmly believe this. I also believe that, without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel” –Constitutional Convention of 1787
In Benjamin Franklin's 1749 plan of education for public schools in Pennsylvania, he insisted that schools teach "the Excellency of the Christian religion above all others, ancient or modern."
Alexander Hamilton:
- Served in Revolutionary War under George Washington
- Delegate to Continental Congress
- 1st Delegate chosen to the Constitutional Convention
- Signer of Constitution
- Key writer of Federalist Papers
- 1st Secretary of the Treasury
Hamilton worked with Rev. James Bayard to form the Christian Constitutional Society to help spread over the world the two things which Hamilton said made America great:
(1) Christianity
(2) a Constitution formed under Christianity.
“The Christian Constitutional Society, its object is first: The support of the Christian religion. Second: The support of the United States.” [From the charter of the Christian Constitutional Society]
Patrick Henry:
- Officially known as the "Orator of the Revolution"
- Give me Liberty, or Give me Death speech
- Prominent Anti-Federalist
- Instrumental in bringing about the adoption of the Bill of Rights
“This is all the inheritance I can give my dear family. The religion of Christ can give them one which will make them rich indeed.”
—The Last Will and Testament of Patrick Henry
“It cannot be emphasized too clearly and too often that this nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religion, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason, peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here.” [Patrick Henry, May 1765 Speech to the House of Burgesses]
“The Bible is worth all other books which have ever been printed.”
John Jay:
- Served in 1st and 2nd Continental Congress
- Fist Supreme Court Chief Justice
- Co-writer of the Federalist Papers
“ Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty, as well as the privilege and interest of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers.”
“Whether our religion permits Christians to vote for infidel rulers is a question which merits more consideration than it seems yet to have generally received either from the clergy or the laity. It appears to me that what the prophet said to Jehoshaphat about his attachment to Ahab ("Shouldest thou help the ungodly and love them that hate the Lord?" 2 Chronicles 19:2) affords a salutary lesson.”
Samuel Johnston:
- North Carolina member of the Continental Congress
- Elected the first President of the United States under the Articles of Confederation
- Presided over the Third and Fourth congresses in 1775 and 1776
“It is apprehended that Jews, Mahometans (Muslims), pagans, etc., may be elected to high offices under the government of the United States. Those who are Mahometans, or any others who are not professors of the Christian religion, can never be elected to the office of President or other high office, unless first the people of America lay aside the Christian religion altogether, it may happen. Should this unfortunately take place, the people will choose such men as think as they do themselves.”
James Madison:
- Delegate to the Constitutional Convention
- Signer of the Constitution
- Key writer of the Federalist Papers
- 4th President of the U.S.
“We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We’ve staked the future of all our political institutions upon our capacity…to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God.” [1778 to the General Assembly of the State of Virginia]
“A watchful eye must be kept on ourselves lest, while we are building ideal monuments of renown and bliss here, we neglect to have our names enrolled in the Annals of Heaven.” [Letter by Madison to William Bradford, urging him to make sure of his own salvation in Jesus Christ - November 9, 1772]
At the Constitutional Convention of 1787, James Madison proposed the plan to divide the central government into three branches. He discovered this model of government from the Perfect Governor, as he read Isaiah 33:22;
“For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver,
the LORD is our king; He will save us.”
James McHenry:
- Delegate to the Continental Congress
- Signer of the Constitution
“Public utility pleads most forcibly for the general distribution of the Holy Scriptures. The doctrine they preach, the obligations they impose, the punishment they threaten, the rewards they promise, the stamp and image of divinity they bear, which produces a conviction of their truths, can alone secure to society, order and peace, and to our courts of justice and constitutions of government, purity, stability and usefulness. In vain, without the Bible, we increase penal laws and draw entrenchments around our institutions. Bibles are strong entrenchments. Where they abound, men cannot pursue wicked courses, and at the same time enjoy quiet conscience.”
Benjamin Rush:
- Signer of the Declaration
- Pennsylvania representative to the Continental Congress
“I lament that we waste so much time and money in punishing crimes and take so little pains to prevent them…we neglect the only means of establishing and perpetuating our republican forms of government; that is, the universal education of our youth in the principles of Christianity by means of the Bible; for this Divine Book, above all others, constitutes the soul of republicanism.” “By withholding the knowledge of the Scriptures from children, we deprive ourselves of the best means of awakening moral sensibility in their minds.” [Letter written (1790’s) in Defense of the Bible in all schools in America]
“If moral precepts alone could have reformed mankind, the mission of the Son of God into our world would have been unnecessary.”
Thomas Paine:
- Author of Common Sense & Rights Of Man
“ It has been the error of the schools to teach astronomy, and all the other sciences, and subjects of natural philosophy, as accomplishments only; whereas they should be taught theologically, or with reference to the Being who is the author of them: for all the principles of science are of divine origin. Man cannot make, or invent, or contrive principles: he can only discover them; and he ought to look through the discovery to the Author.”
“ The evil that has resulted from the error of the schools, in teaching natural philosophy as an accomplishment only, has been that of generating in the pupils a species of atheism. Instead of looking through the works of creation to the Creator himself, they stop short, and employ the knowledge they acquire to create doubts of his existence. They labour with studied ingenuity to ascribe every thing they behold to innate properties of matter, and jump over all the rest by saying, that matter is eternal.”
George Washington:
“ It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and Bible.”
Religion Always Divides - Freedom Always Unites
The founding father were clear that religion should be a personal matter and that government should stay out of it. It's good to point out that these revolutionary leaders were cautioning about the divisiveness of religion...because religion is divisive.
Benjamin Franklin helped me when I saw nutty hypocracy in religious organizations and didn't know what to do. He said he had gone to a church and found that it was a waste of time as the sermon was about the supporting the church and not the other way around...Since I read that I feel great staying out of religious services.
Freedom unites. And one's religion is OK with me as long as I an not proselytized.
Ron Paul is clear that religion is a personal matter. That doesn't mean he can't mention his religious position. It's just not a political issue to him and shouldn't be to anyone else. Sure isn't to me.
Not truthful statement
to say that religion always divides and freedom always unites! You have a wrong understanding of religion. They meant a certain difference between church/religion and state, but not a total separation also. AMong the Founding Fathers there were Christians, Deists, Atheists etc. Christianity means positive freedom (the freedom to), and not always negative freedom (freedom from). Christianity unites people, people interpret it differently,
therefore different traditions. What is means is that the state has a certain neutrality, does not prescribe to people, but also not prohibit. The prohibition of prayer at school, at schools that wish to allow this, is not legitimate. Another practical example: there are many atheists that have also fought wars against each other. Christianity, truly understood, never forces you to believe (that would be divisive and not genuine), it is an act of personal confession yes. But this also means that a public political figure cannot avoid expressing his faith (as president), so it is private, but also public, but does not "force" anyone to believe. Paul's rejection of the theory of pre-emptive strike/war is based on the Augustine and biblical belief that one can defend yourself after attack, but not attack if you think maybe the other party might attack you. Christianity ultimately defines freedom as coming from God as well: we have freedom of choice to accept or reject Him.
Wish I hadn't written...
Actually, I wish I hadn't said...
I really really REALLY wish I hadn't said that my girfriend's mother was fat.
Really wish I hadn't said that.
But you know, all that wishing isn't making her any less fat.
-0-
LawfulGov.Org
Your Nexus to the Freedom Movement
good quotes, Religion is the
good quotes, Religion is the reason for the Dark Ages and there is no debate about it...
"Oh yeah you feeling sick, well you should go to church and pray for God to heal you." - Not a very effective treatment method.
Do you really wish to discuss the benefits of religion aswell?
Something tells me you will go back and crawl in your troll hole.
I'd take you up on that
I'd take you up on that offer, if we were on some other site. As you know, certain topics are suppressed here.
But I suppose there's really no point; both of us can guess what the other would say, and we both know how we would respond to the other's arguments. I just want to make it clear that I shrink from none of my principles and will happily debate them at the drop of a hat.
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Liberty for Dummies
Ron Paul doesn't wear his religion on his sleeve, just Freedom.
Maybe you think Jesus or some other religious leader defines your life.
Maybe you look inwards to yourself to decide right and wrong.
What has that to do with the Political system we are burdened with.
As long as you are free to follow your beliefs I think you are doing well.
But you start restricting me because you mixed up your meds and have a vision, - then you have a problem.
This is the deal.
You leave me alone, and I'll leave you alone.
Just for comparison these are the Muslim ten commandmants.
1. Worship only God: Take not with Allah another object of worship; or thou (O man!) wilt sit in disgrace and destitution. (17:22)
2. Be kind, honourable and humble to one's parents: Thy Lord hath decreed that ye worship none but Him, and that ye be kind to parents. Whether one or both of them attain old age in thy life, say not to them a word of contempt, nor repel them, but address them in terms of honour. (17:23) And, out of kindness, lower to them the wing of humility, and say: "My Lord! bestow on them thy Mercy even as they cherished me in childhood." (17:24)
3. Be neither miserly nor wasteful in one's expenditure: And render to the kindred their due rights, as (also) to those in want, and to the wayfarer: But squander not (your wealth) in the manner of a spendthrift. (17:26) Verily spendthrifts are brothers of the Evil Ones; and the Evil One is to his Lord (himself) ungrateful. (17:27) And even if thou hast to turn away from them in pursuit of the Mercy from thy Lord which thou dost expect, yet speak to them a word of easy kindness. (17:28) Make not thy hand tied (like a niggard's) to thy neck, nor stretch it forth to its utmost reach, so that thou become blameworthy and destitute. (17:29)
4. Do not engage in 'mercy killings' for fear of starvation: Kill not your children for fear of want: We shall provide sustenance for them as well as for you. Verily the killing of them is a great sin. (17:31)
5. Do not commit adultery: Nor come nigh to adultery: for it is a shameful (deed) and an evil, opening the road (to other evils). (17:32)
6. Do not kill unjustly: Nor take life - which Allah has made sacred - except for just cause. And if anyone is slain wrongfully, we have given his heir authority (to demand qisas or to forgive): but let him not exceed bounds in the matter of taking life; for he is helped (by the Law). (17:33)
7. Care for orphaned children: Come not nigh to the orphan's property except to improve it, until he attains the age of full strength...(17:34)
8. Keep one's promises: ...fulfil (every) engagement [i.e. promise/covenant], for (every) engagement will be enquired into (on the Day of Reckoning). (17:34)
9. Be honest and fair in one's interactions: Give full measure when ye measure, and weigh with a balance that is straight: that is the most fitting and the most advantageous in the final determination. (17:35)
10. Do not be arrogant in one's claims or beliefs: And pursue not that of which thou hast no knowledge; for every act of hearing, or of seeing or of (feeling in) the heart will be enquired into (on the Day of Reckoning). (17:36) Nor walk on the earth with insolence: for thou canst not rend the earth asunder, nor reach the mountains in height. (17:37)
The Aztec.
I. Thou shalt fear, honor, and love the gods.
II. Thou shalt not use the names of the gods on thy tongue or in thy talk, at any time.
III. Thou shalt honor the feast days.
IV. Thou shalt honor thy father and thy mother, thy kinsmen, priests, and elders.
V. Thou shalt not kill.
VI. Thou shalt not commit adultery.
VII. Thou shalt not steal.
VIII. Thou shalt not bear false witness.
Although when I was in South America I was told there were 3.
1. Don't lie.
2. Don't steal.
3. Work hard.
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http://youtube.com/watch?...
Watch and feel the power!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Yeah....and get....
....the victim ready for the sacrifice.
That was the burden of their government.
You will understand the point when you find yourself under the knife!
And they disappeared, as so will we unless RP can stop it.
And my saying RP I mean us!
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http://youtube.com/watch?...
Watch and feel the power!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Irrelevant
They were all individuals
Irrelevant
They were all individuals
I'm an atheist
I'm certainly no liberal.
My biggest complaint about our society (in general) is they love to look down on athiests. It's not an open attack, it's just condemnation when the issue is raised. evangelicals have this attitude like you must believe in God in order to be a moral person. I reject that outright.
I don't criticize anyone for believing, I just hate the general arrogance of believers who testify as if they have seen first hand the kingdom of God.
Nobody
...is looking down on you. This is not part of any argument here. RP is for your freedom to be an atheist and someone else's freedom to be a Christian, to sum it up not completely but symbolically.
END.OF.STORY
You're welcome...
It is not enough that they believe, you must believe it too...Paine actually considered Christianity and I am paraphrasing, 'a form of atheism because it reduced God [which Paine believed] to a man.' He thought God was infinitely above and beyond such an assumption...
I am a person with very strong personal beliefs
and amongst those beliefs is a surety of the existence of the creator. I have no problems with those who have chosen to be atheists because of personal perceptions based on a logical and rational approach toward the interpretation of those perceptions. My problem comes from those who have a tenet that G-d doesn't exist and they hate him for it, for theirs is not a rational approach and is based on emotional interpretations of the perceptions of life. These are the ones most strident in their attempt to remove all references to any G-d from the public perception and it is wrong for them to do it. They are just as strident in justification of their actions in forcing their views on others as many misdirected "christians". I have a problem with any person or group that tries to force their perceptions on me, be they religious or atheistic. To those with a live and let live attitude, I get along fine.
Excellent post. Some of my
Excellent post. Some of my favorite quotations in there. :-)
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Liberty for Dummies
Thank you for posting this!
It always makes me so angry when politicians et. al. start talking about the christianity of our Founding Fathers. Few people realize that they were not Christians at all. This government wasn't founded on Christian beliefs, all but two of the men that signed the Declaration of Independence were high level Masons.
Thanks for pointing out the atheist bashing that goes on
I think that people should keep their beliefs to themselves, at least on here. Promoting your form of Christianity on DP will only lead to divisiveness and long arguments that get us nowhere. The same goes for atheists.
I am an atheist, but I don't name call and demean religious people. Religious people should do the same. I think it would be best if we agreed to disagree. We are all on the same "team" here, except for the trolls of course. :-)
This is laughable
People seem to forget the most important thing. It is not what the "fathers believed" it is what the people who supported the fathers believed.
Jefferson or Paine motivated people to fight. But they were not the fight. Their writings did NOT inspire England to give up the states. The PEOPLE fought.
The founders would agree with me. It is not so much what they believed that was important but what the people believed.
~ Thread over!!!
Actually it doesn't matter
Actually it doesn't matter what the people believed either. It is irrelevant as to whether this country was founded by Christians or Muslims. In either case we should all equally have religious freedom.
Actually, It Matters Very Much...
The quintessential point is that their paradigm of the universe was the only thing that did matter--or the European incorporation of church and state would likely have prevailed in the discourse of the Constitutional process...
I quadruple the "who cares" - but one comment...
Everyone is forgetting the greatest of all Founding Fathers, the man responsible for the American Revolution and the idea of rights not given but guaranteed by government. It wasn't Washington or Jefferson. His name is Thomas Paine!
Flagged
Hey, this stuff is inappropriate and divisive to the campaign. I have take great acception to the Libertarian Platform on many points (particularly its desire to prevent parents from providing religious instruction to children which to me seems Communistic), but we are better served by keeping some of this to another day and focus on getting RP elected.
Besides, you site only a small handful of men. The great majority of colonialists were Christians and it is they who provided this nation with the moral wherewithal that allowed us to be free and made us great, not Jefferson who slept with this slave-girl.
Excuse me, but this simply not true.
Please let's be brothers on this battlefield. However, your statement "particularly its [LPI] desire to prevent parents from providing religious instruction to children which to me seems Communistic)" is not true.
Nothing about it is true. You are completely mistaken.
Since you seem to be
Since you seem to be motivated by what's best for the campaign, I hope you'll also be flagging all posts calling for, e.g., "Prayers for Paul," as they turn off the lurking freethinkers.
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Liberty for Dummies
That is a ridiculous claim.
That is a ridiculous claim. You have no idea as to the personal morality of these men. They may have been Christians, and that is fine, but it does not mean that they were more virtuous than the founders that were deist, or even possibly atheist.
As far as people turning against Thomas Paine goes, it just goes to show that people could not freely express their doubts concerning religion at the time. This seems to weigh as evidence that those who did express at least some reluctance to accept Christianity probably doubted even more than they let on.
Does it matter so much whether the founders were Christian or not? No, not really. They realized that we needed religious freedom. I, as an atheist, am no less ethical than anyone else. I have a value system based upon reason, just as the founders did. The founders realized that one could find out what is right by using reason. God may be a guide to what is right, but he does not define it, he simply knows what it is.
Libertarian Platform on Religion?
The Libertarian Party takes no such position on religion. You must be referring to government education...
what about
6,001 years ago? what did they believe in then?
a dry cave and a sharp spear.
oh wait, they didn't exist then because the world is only 6,000 years old.