Q: If taxation is theft, how is government to be funded?

The U.S. didn't have an income tax until 1913. In fact, income taxes were ruled unconstitutional by the supreme court back in 1881 (I believe that was the year, if I'm remembering correctly). New Jersey didn't have income taxes (or sales taxes) until I think it was the early 1960's. Look at NJ now, terribly in debt just like the federal government - lots of good that those new income and sales taxes did for us.

How do you think government was funded before 1913? Via sources other than income taxes.

The solution isn't generating more revenues for the government, it's cutting costs. That is the only way America has a chance of surviving the financial disaster which is headed our way. Cut government spending.

It seems that all most of our politicians know how to do is spend, spend and spend some more. What happens to individuals when they do the same? Eventual bankruptcy...

We cannot continue to live beyond our means for much longer.

My guess is that you are referring to the federal income tax. Most people don't realize that they are paying taxes ad infinitum OTHER than the income tax.

We can fund government the same way we funded it before the income tax. There are countless user fees and taxes that aren't necessarily called taxes. The income tax is a fraud perpetrated on the American people. There are fees to pay for everything... highways, schools, police... What do you think the income tax funds? The IRS gathers it's income tax only to pay interest on money the government borrows from the Federal Reserve Bank, which is owned, as most here know, by private, uber-wealthy bankers. The more credit created, the more the government owes. Abolish the IRS and FED and you've eliminated the biggest source of financial woes in this country.

google and read. Brilliant anarcho-capitalist (<<< a GOOD thing!) and often cited by Ron Paul as a major component of his intellectual foundation.

The only question remaining in my mind is, do we as a People still have the "guts" to be FREE?

Taxation IS theft. Therefore it is inherently wrong. And anything "funded" by a method that is inherently wrong can't help but be inherently wrong, as well. The only legitimate government is the kind established via unanimous consent, where ALL parties involved voluntarily agree to the system and the method of funding it. Anything less is tyranny of the majority, mob-rule, "democracy", etc...

http://groups.yahoo.com/g...

We are not a representative democracy...

But, WE ARE A Constitutional Republic....

Realize there is a VERY VERY VERY BIG DIFFERENCE!!!!!!

Let's put it this way, here are some of the founders quotes on the wrongfulness of democracies...

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote!"

~ Benjamin Franklin

"We are a Republican Government. Real liberty is never found in despotism or in the extremes of Democracy... It has been observed that a pure democracy if it were practicable would be the most perfect government. Experience has proved that no position is more false than this. The ancient democracies in which the people themselves deliberated never possessed one good feature of government. Their very character was tyranny; their figure deformity."

~ Alexander Hamilton, Secretary of the Treasury to George Washington, author of the Federalist Papers

"Democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There never was a democracy yet that did not commit suicide."

~ John Adams, 2nd President of the United States

"A democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where fifty-one percent of the people may take away the rights of the other forty-nine."

~ Thomas Jefferson, 3rd President of the United States

"Democracies have ever been spectacles of turbulence and contention; have ever been found incompatible with personal security or the rights of property; and have in general been as short in their lives as they have been violent in their death.

~ James Madison, 4th President of the United States, Father of the Constitution

"The experience of all former ages had shown that of all human governments, democracy was the most unstable, fluctuating and short-lived."

~ John Quincy Adams, 6th President of the United States

"Between a balanced republic and a democracy, the difference is like that between order and chaos."

~ John Marshall, Chief Justice of the Supreme Court, 1801-1835

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Love Liberty, be Vigilant

"Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty" (2 Corinthians 3:17)

Faith in God will prevail all things!

http://www.strike-the-roo...

http://groups.yahoo.com/g...

If We the People were to abolish the IRS and the Personal Income tax as Ron Paul proposes, how would We the People fund the necessary functions of the government We created and We gave authority to?

1. We would seek out and eliminate highly inefficient government programs;
2. We would begin to phase out government programs that are duplicated at the state level and/or not allowed under the US Constitution; and,
3. We would reduce the budget back to 1990 levels of spending;
4. The government (Federal, State and Local) would still collect the following taxes and fees:

Accounts Receivable Tax
Automobile Registration Tax
Building Permit Tax
Capital Gains Tax
CDD/CID Tax
CDL License Tax
Cigarette Tax
Corporate Income Tax – (Nearly Equal to the US Department of Defense Budget pre 9/11)
Court Fines (Indirect Taxes)
Dog License Tax
Death Tax
Estate Tax
Federal Unemployment Tax (FUTA)
Fishing License Tax
Food License Tax
Fuel Permit Tax
Gasoline Tax (42 Cents Per Gallon) - (Nearly Equal to the US Department of transportation budget)
Hunting License Tax
Inventory Tax
Liquor Tax
Local Income Tax
Luxury Taxes
Marriage License Tax
Medicare Tax
Parking Meters
Property Tax – (Used to pay for local schools and other local usage)
Real Estate Tax
Septic Permit Tax
Service Charge Taxes
Social Security Tax
Road Usage Taxes (Truckers)
Sales Taxes
Recreational Vehicle Tax
Road Toll Booth Taxes
School Tax
State Income Tax
State Unemployment Tax (SUTA)
Telephone Federal Excise Tax
Telephone Federal, State and Local Surcharge Taxes
Telephone Minimum Usage Surcharge Tax
Telephone Recurring and Non-Recurring Charges Tax
Telephone Usage Charge Tax
Toll Bridge Taxes
Toll Tunnel Taxes
Traffic Fines
Trailer Registration Tax
Utility Taxes
Vehicle License Registration Tax
Vehicle Sales Tax
Watercraft Registration Tax
Well Permit Tax
Workers Compensation Tax
And, Import taxes (Tariffs)

So, there would be plenty of revenue to operate the government without the personal income tax. In fact, after the IRS collects the personal income tax and pays for operating itself and pays interest on borrowed money there is nothing left. The IRS does not contribute to operating other Federal Government departments. So, the real question is, “what will you do with all of that extra money you get to keep?”

juliusbragg---"{clapping with a standing ovation}
now thats putting it the way it's suppose to be put

"The Only President to save my kids future"

If you have a construction company, and your jobs pay for everything, from gas, materials, tools, employees, lunches profits etc.
One day you decide that your 2002 Chevy work truck isnt enough. You get a 2008 Hummer H-1 with 35" wheels, 3 dvd's. Then You buy a 35000 square foot office building. Then Hire 13 secretaries. Update to top of the line computer system. Add a second office and 4 more Hummer company Vehicles... Pretty soon you realize that you have to institute a 5 dollar per hour "company fee" on all of your employees. You have to start taking out loans every month to pay the bills. You have to buy materials on credit cards.... The question becomes "How would we stay in business if we got rid of the "company fee"? The answer is by reducing spending. Sell the Hummers, get 2004 Chevy trucks. Get rid of 12 of the secretaries. Downsize to the right size building, maybe 5000 square feet. Basic computers capable of everything you would need for work. Close the second office.

The point is that the United States spends so much more then it needs to. We do not need 75% of the departments that are currently held. We do not need to spend Billions of dollars over seas. There are legal taxes that fund the government.
Gas Tax, Sales Tax, Excise taxes, Corporate tax, Private road Tolls, Ciggarette tax, alcohol tax, etc.

Without Income Tax we would still have huge amounts of money coming in, in fact, about the same as we had in 2000... Do you remember 2000? There were Highways, police, fire departments, citys, hospitals, food, and so on.

Dont ever believe that income taxes are LEGAL!

If you're like me and believe in fully fledged anarcho-capitalism, then the answer is pretty simple. Don't fund the government at all.

1) corporate income tax. The major difference between corporate income tax (type C, i think, anyway) and individual income tax is that corporate income tax is levied on the profits that a company make, and not its gross. However, it's still unconscionable that a company can do all of its business within one state and still be charged federal taxes for its existence. The federal government should only have the right to tax companies which conduct business between the states, or multinationals which do business in the US or american multinationals which do business outside (which should be on a different taxation schedule from domestic strictly interstate businesses).

2) user fees. like the post office. However, there are things which clearly can't be paid for by user fees; how do you decide how to "charge" the citizen for military protection if someone tries to invade us. Or if the police capture a murderer (although admittedly that's a state issue)

This is a good argument for a federal flat tax; "protection from invasion" is something that really affects us equally.

3) tariffs. the problem is that tariffs are often levied as a means to create market protection for domestic goods. Instead, why not make a flat tariff on all imported goods, with no product class loopholes allowed, to cover costs like, inspecting for bombs, and a small surcharge for the privledge of doing business in the US.

Assuming an Income tax, we should be still paying taxes inversely with respect to governmental distance, i.e. 80% of your taxes should go to local, 20% state and maybe 0~1% to federal. Or, you pay taxes locally and they pay up. This is because if you don't like the way you're being taxed, it's much much easier to kick out the idiots who decide how to tax you.

Black's Law Dictionary (sixth edition) Theft is described as "The taking of property without the owner's consent (emphases on without consent)". Our fore fathers (on our behalf) created a contract between "we the people" and/for the legal right for a newly formed central government (a republic not a democracy) to exist. We refer to that contact as the US Constitution.

Along with that right to exist "we the people" gave this central government the "right" to collect revenue with extreme limitations. Whatever is not found in black and white in the Constitution regarding taxation, this newly formed government did not acquire as a right. Therefore the revenues or taxes the US Government collects within the confines of the Constitution is NOT theft, for "we the people" GAVE our Consent under this contract we call the US Constitution. All the taxes noted in the Constitution are known as indirect taxation. The only direct tax was to be apportioned (an equal head tax) amongst the population and collected through the Governors of each State.

When I hear people say that violates my Constitutional Rights, I somewhat cringe, because it my opinion that the only entity who has Constitutional Rights is the Federal Government. The US Constitution did not give you or me the RIGHT to exist, it gave the Federal Government the right to Exist, and without the US Constitution is has no rights. So therefore "we the people" hold special rights or private rights, which are superior to the Federal Government Constitutional Rights, which allows them to exist only through contract.

All this talk about taxation by theft is pointless, for the Federal Government has certain Constitutional Rights to collect taxes as found in the Constitution. I'm not interested in debating whether the government has these rights or not, because I've read the Constitution, and know they are within their Constitutional rights to lay any indirect tax they wish to impose.

Ron Paul is not an anarchist, and wishes only to STOP the Federal Government from imposing a direct tax on your labor, which he calls unconstitutional, because it is not apportioned (an equal head tax) amongst the population and collected through the Governors of each State .

I hope this better answers your question.

hjschaapman

Federal, State and Local municipalities keep 2 sets of books. The record of spending and debt is called (the Budget), the record of composite revenue is called ( the Comprehensive Annual Financial Report) There is more than enough money to go around without taxation and you can learn all about it at www.cafr1.com read and learn!

Dr. Paul has pent a career on this. Have you read ANYTHING he has said on this very subject?

This is some kind of joke right?

This has been discussed in debates on TV, on CNN, on talk shows, on the radio, in campaign literature on countless websites.

Where were ya?

Now you are going to get a bunch of answers and start a big fight on something that our leader has explained weekly for the last year.

I actually researched it months ago when the debate started.

It is very interesting.

When you do decide to research this on your own keep this in mind....

Social security is listed as a "budget item" or in simpler terms a cost to our government

WRONG!
BULL%$IT!
LIE!

Social security is taken out of our checks each week. It is a CUSTODIAL ACCOUNT.

Your government says they need to tax revenue to meet the social security obligation...ALL OF IT.

The above represents about 10% of the argument.

Now research all about it on your own and GIVE US THE ANSWER.

If we seek to reduce the Federal, State & County and City governments down to size, we must address its functions.

Police---to protect persons and property
Courts --- to decide issues of justice
Military --- to defend the national borders from invasion

Each and everytime a person or company enters into a contract, they need to registar that contract with an arm or branch of the court system that does not yet exist. If the government accepts the contract, then a fee is paid to the court/Contract fee department. That fee covers a small part of the cost of judging any dispute that may arrise, the cost of any policing that may needed, and the over riding cost of national defense.

For example, you go to lease an apartment. The Landlord and you arrive at a price and terms that is satisfactory to you both. But to make that contract enforceable, or valid in the governmental system, then you must take it to the court/contract fee department and registar it there. They will review your contract. If it is acceptable, then you two pay the fee assessed. That fee will mean that if in the off chance you two have a dispute, the court is prepaid and you are fee to seek judgement and enforcement on the contract. This department spreads its fees as needed for courts, policing and national defense.

With a dynamic economy, there millions of contracts and agreements made each day. The fees assesed should be very low. If they are too high, then two parties may not seek out court/police protection. They would be what economists call a free rider by gaining protection from national defense, yet not paying for it. The two people or companies that do not pre-pay in this manner, have no access to the governmental court system.

These two may seek arbitration, or not, but nothing is enforceable. The final arbitrator of power rests with the state. The government has a monopoly on the Right to Use force, thus it is a moral institution ONLY if it follows strictly the principles of respecting fully human individual rights: ie The right to ones LIFE, LIBERTY & PROPERTY.

The check on the system is always from the bottom up. Do to the massive amounts and volumes of contracts, the legal system should be responsive to the people and not single large influences...

More later...
Treg

What do "We The People" want from the government? "We the People", lets be honest, got ourselves in this messy tax situation. If we want the "Federal Government" to educate our children, take care of us in retirement, pay for our medicine, protect our boarders, provide us with jobs,... then yes we MUST be taxed. But, if we want to be responsible for ourselves, educate or pay someone to educate our own children, provide for our own retirement (SAVE) and donate to those that are unfortunate, provide for our own medical needs, Pay someone or volunteer for boarder protection, policing, firefighters..., provide our own jobs.... The roll of government would be so small that Fee for service would be all that is necessary. Our lifestyles would be so much better because the waste is so enormous right now that we would have soooo much more wealth. Government is a bag with a hole in it!

Well its theft maybe when they take your earned income...but things like user fees and tariffs etc, is not theft..

would carry with it nasty consequences, We have several generations now that are hardwired to beleive that they are "entitled" cradle to grave. It would require a few generations just to get people to spend their money wisely or on healthcare even if they could afford it. Ron Paul could set the wheels in motion on that one, but in all reality it wouldnt be fully realised until 2030- culture shock : ) we'd need to be weaned im afraid. We cant even get America to vote the only obvious candidate...imagine getting them all to get on board a new tax ideology. sad...but we have better odds of getting people to become responsible about greenhouse gas emmissions.

"There is no worse tyranny than to force a man to pay for what he does not want merely because you think it would be good for him." -Professor Bernardo de la Paz

Free Luna!

Watch freedom to fascism my friend and educate thyself.

We have a representative democracy and it isour elected officials - at all levels- that have devised the present state of affairs. If we lived under a military dictatorship then I would support the idea that taxes are theft.

Most people don't mind paying taxes. They do object to the amount and, importantly, what the $ is spent on.

User fees, fines, tariffs, court fees, etc. would be plenty to fund the legitimate functions of a small government that didn't meddle in every aspect of our lives.

Fire departments used to be private ventures by insurance companies. Charity used to be voluntary, now it is forced. Government education is unnecessary and used to be completely private. Just a few examples where a liberty oriented government has overstepped its purpose. And these oversteps have to be paid for. So if we are going to take away liberty what is stealing a little money to pay for it.

were probably more libertarian (lowercase "l") than Libertarian, which is why they made allowances for some form of taxation in the constitution. The Founding Fathers were mortal men after all.

I suppose user fees would be able to pay for most services, and wouldn't be theft, but beyond that, Taxes should be voluntary. I suppose I would kick in a little for other things, like police, and probably local schools to keep the kids off the streets.

I think it's a false dichotomy to assume that taxes are either theft, or they are not.

There is a continuum between legitimate taxes and taxes that are theft, and the deciding factor about where a given tax is on this spectrum is how much consent there is to pay it.

For example, if you are considering to buy a piece of property in an area where property taxes are levied at an annual level of, say, 1% of sale price, is that tax theft? No one is forcing you to buy that property, and you are implicitly agreeing to pay that tax when you choose to buy that property. That's consent. That is fundamentally no different from buying a home in a home owner's association in which you agree to pay the monthly home owner's fee. Surely no one will agree that HOA fees are theft, Property tax is essentially the same thing.

What also affects the level of consent involved is the scope of the tax.
A HOA fee involves more consent than a local property tax which has more consent that a county tax which has more consent that a state tax which has more consent than a federal tax. Why? Because, practically speaking, you have more of a choice (in deciding whether or not to pay the given tax) the smaller the scope (the more local it is), and less choice the wider the scope.

So are all taxes theft? Not necessarily, and certainly some taxes are more like theft than other taxes. State income taxes, for example, are less like theft than are federal taxes. Not coincidentally, state income taxes are less of a practical problem, because they are forced to stay in line since they have more competition (neighboring states) than do federal taxes.

If you have to have taxes, then tax locally. If the local government wants benefits from a broader scope (city, county, state, federal), then it can choose to participate at the wider scope, or not. That puts the pressure on to keep things reasonable, and for taxes to remain relatively close to the end of the spectrum away from theft.